Jessica's recap of the mugger episode is incalculably brilliant (says someone who has never seen the show...)

Yeah, it's probably my favorite recap of the show. I loathe the ones of the first three seasons, and not just because they're so negative -- I just think they're poorly done. I think Sars did a great job with season four. And Jessica was really good as well with much lesser material.

That one, though, stands out among the rest.

Sad part is, that episode actually has some witty and fun banter. It's just totally, totally out of place.

I thought the recaps were funny, but sometimes I thought the comments on Dawson and Jen were way too much. They enjoyed giving Michelle Williams "clever" nicknames that showed that they felt she looked like a pig. I wonder if I could find it, one about Jen that came out of nowhere saying how awful and unpretty she was.

I did like that in the last episode when they were talking about the flashbacks one of them (I know that Jessica and either WC or Sars did a half of the episode) admits that she wasn't as pig like as they remembered writing.

Sars and Wing Chun split the first half of series finale and Jessica did the second half on her own. Jessica's the one who said that Michelle Williams was prettier than she remembered. I am pretty sure it was because of the video Jen and Pacey are watching of "home movies"and it's the first season credits, in which I agree, Jen did look pretty.

Well, you've all been gone a couple of weeks, but perhaps someone will check this thread out again.

What was up with the writing of Dawson? I watched these on TBS a couple of years ago, and I really started to wonder if the writers hated Kevin Williamson, and said--this character is him, and we're making him an ass.

I hate Mitch and Gail--I have seasons 1 to 4 on dvd (hate the last 2), and the finale, and whenever those 2 are onscreen, I hit the fastforward. Gail's "you're the little hero, letting other's shine" bit from season 3 or 4 had to be, HAD TO BE, someone's idea of a joke. There's no way someone wrote that anything other than tounge in cheek--I don't believe it!

As for Dawson away from the others in the last 2 seasons--was that at Van Der Beek's request in any way? Did he basically say, I don't want to work with these guys anymore?

Thanks for any info anyone has--I watched these well after the series was canceled, and well past my thirty-fifth birthday!

Hey, Forestranger. I'd like to see a little more action in this thread as well.

I think that Williamson honestly was unaware that Dawson came off as such a pratt in the first two seasons. Watching S1 and S2 in retrospect, Dawson was always a douche but I didn't really see that when I was 16/17 y.o. I'll let someone else try to defend younger Dawson's behavior (dd86, perhaps ) because I just can't do it.

As for the other writers hating Dawson? Yep, I think they did.

For the super prolific Gina Fattore, I don't think it was so much about hating Dawson as loving Pacey. She LOVED Pacey so it was more about making him look good than making Dawson look bad in S3 and S4.
Curiously, for me the most loathsome Dawson episode (Show Me Love; the boat regatta in S3 where he tries to kill Pacey) was written by two huge Dawson/D/Joey fans and initially was supposed to be the episode where Dawson and Joey reunite. I can only guess that they saw Dawson's behavior as incredibly brave and romantic and not psychotic (like the rest of us.) Luckily, Greg Berlanti put the kibosh on that and we get the incredibly awkward Dawson/Joey scene in his bedroom at the end instead of the inevitable makeout (the ep. writers wanted.)

Season 5 is a vortex of suck and I can't rationalize it at all or even wrap my head around what the writers were thinking for most of the characters but any time something glowing was said about Dawson, I think it was likely the writers mocking the character (and the Beek.)

Most of S6 is actually kind of awesome. The premiere which initially looks like a D/J shippers dream is really about how fantastically dysfunctional they are. It was written by Fattore and Tom Kapinos and is chock full of Dawson disdain. (Incidentally, Kapinos was a vocal fan of a website about D/J called Project Hellmates created in response to the soulmate nonsense.) And yes, Van Der Beek requested less screentime in S6. He was trying to distance himself from the show as much as possible. He was also pissed because he'd been promised episode 15 to direct in S6 and then, Ep. 15 was Castaways and he refused to direct it since it only featured Pacey and Joey.

Really, at the beginning of 3, the new writers realized that Joey was a more interesting character than Dawson and started writing for her. In the script for the S6 finale (where Joey's in "Paris,") there's a line about how we've finally come to the end of Joey Potter's journey which shows that the writers hadn't been thinking of it as Dawson's Creek for years.

When Williamson returned for the finale, he planned to reunite Dawson and Joey 100%. I think he says in the commentary that he realized that that wasn't the story the show had told over the years. But word in the writers's room is that he absolutely wrote a script that ended with Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie back together and had to be heavily persuaded to scrap it and write a different ending.

Hi bsfc:
Thanks for all that info! My sister didn't have a workable vcr a few years ago, she made me tape them for her, and I got hooked.

I thought that they really did a disservice to Jen over the years--and then to kill her in the end, it added insult to injury! But her relationship with Grams and Jack was so great!

I have the weirdest relationship with the dvds of this show--somehow Joshua Jackson just WAS Pacey. When I watch season 4, I watch the first part of Four Stories, then I skip forward to Promicide, Sep Anx, and The Graduate, skipping Coda, as well. Then I pop in the finale. The whole "town loser" bit is overblown and soapy, yet somehow realistic--it's just too painful to watch. I can't think of any other show or character that I feel that way about. It's been more than a year since I watched, but don't I get to skip "Dawson pays for Joey's college" that way, too?

My sister disagees with me, but I like the dvd s3 and s4 theme song--I like the song, and it seems to go with the fact that they reach a turning point: the show's going to be about Pacey instead of Dawson.

So you think that I should rethink season 6? There is great Pacey/Joey stuff there, but there's also...what's her name, Busy Phillips, in rehab--that seemed like a shame. She was great in season 5, as I remember. And to watch Joey break up with Pacey yet again! Castaways is great though, there's no doubt.

It's interesting in the finale that Dawson's show is just "The Creek." I'm thinking that the writers were sorry that that wasn't the name of their show! Would the fictional Dawson and the real Beek have been such asses if the show hadn't been DAWSON'S Creek?

Can't think of anything else offhand right now, but I'll come back later to post some thoughts. I'll see if I can find season 6 for 50% off anywhere. I know that with my season 3 discs, I had to return 2 of the discs three or four times each to get one that didn't freeze in the middle of episodes--did I get the very last of the discs, or were there quality control issues with that season?

Thanks again for the info! It gives me a lot of insight into the show. Jackson and Holmes just had some awesome chemistry going on there. Some folks on the TWOP boards wrote about season 4 being tiresome (or was it the recaps?)--Joey and Pacey have the same conversation again and again, he needs to be reassured. But frankly, I liked that--it seemed very realistic to me. As written, the character of Pacey had some real issues going on there. By the finale, I could buy into their loving each other in high school, but needing to get out there and grow up before finding each other again later. No way could high school Pacey have stayed with Joey with such a low sense of self esteem.

No problem, Forestranger. The Creek was the show that taught me how to be a fangirl so I'm just happy to have a place to share the otherwise useless stuff I remember about it. I should admit everything I think about the show comes with a HUUUGE P/J bias, but it sounds like we're in the same boat there.

I've heard different things about Jen being killed off but the prevailing opinion is that Michelle requested it so she'd never have to do anything with the show in the future. So that kind of makes it okay for me. Otherwise, yeah, her death is just the final example of Jen getting the shaft for six years. I also think it was worth it for the Jen/Jack scenes in the finale. I loved that so much of the finale focused on that relationship (even if it meant sadly, that some P/J stuff was cut.)

I agree that Joshua Jackson was Pacey. I don't know if it was Emmy-worthy acting but he brought the ANGST like no one else (and on the WB, that's saying something.) I don't know if it was the RL triangle, his hatred of the Beek, his on-again/off-again thing with Holmes or what but you just feel so much for him. S4 is trickier for me because I think part of his downward spiral was solely to serve in the D/J reunion and the Promicide rant still makes me cringe. You're not really missing much by skipping around in S4 (though, Mind Games is alternately hot and angsty P/J wise and 418. Eastern Standard Time? is a really good Jen episode. It was written by Jon Kasdan specifically for Michelle and it wraps up her therapy, family issues, etc. It also has a lot of painful Pacey stuff and a cool ending montage set to Cowboy Junkies's Sweet Jane.) I can't really watch Promicide but Separation Anxiety is OMGSoGood! And I've never seen Coda in its entirety. Even if it could stand on its own as a decent episode, it's a complete mindwipe of S4 and I'm not interested.

With the exception of two or three moments, S5 is also a mindwipe of S4 which I think is really the reason I hate it more than the idea that it's egregious television. There are some positive things to 5 including the additions of Busy Phillips, Ken Marino (who is awesome,) Jordan Bridges (who was pretty funny,) and Sherilynn Fenn (who is occasionally awesome.) If I watched S5 now outside of my shipper mindset, I'd probably really love it as mindless cheesy TV. But when it was airing, I expected more from the show than that so 5 was just an extensive disappointment.

Don't get me wrong, S6 has a lot of bad as well- Jack and Pacey's random British roommate, Emma and Oliver Hudson as Eddie. Ugh. The No Doubt episode? Horrifying. But the premiere of S6 is seriously the end of Dawson/Joey forever. They don't even have another scene together until 621. They also hint at the P/J reunion in the premiere and continue to set it up as the season progresses culminating in Clean and Sober. Castaways is just lovely (seriously, everything fans had been railing about for the past two years is addressed throughout that episode) as are the two episodes following. Eddie was supposed to be gone for good and then, they were able to get Oliver Hudson back so she dumped Pacey. Sob. And the Loveline ep. is beyond the pale bad. But once everybody's back in Capeside, the last two episodes of the season are pretty fantastic and really feel like the show has come home, in a way. They're great nostalgia pieces for seasons past and at the same time, set up where everybody will be in the future finale.

And the finale is just awesome. All ill will I had regarding the show completely dissipated with that finale. I thought it was great that it just included the core 4 and Jack. (No Audrey in sight and Andie's scene was cut.) I loved seeing them as adults. I loved all the meta. I loved all the callbacks and the Joey/Jen bonding and Pacey/Jen bonding. I loved that Dawson was still kind of a douche and despite Williamson's best efforts, never for one second did it look like he and Joey might end up together. Joey actually had a more flowery monologue where she tells Pacey that she loves him "the way a woman loves a man" but it was cut because Williamson and Stupin feared it would give away the ending. Ha.

Oh, man. I don't know when to shut up when it comes to the Creek. I will say that for all of the ribbing it takes, Mike White, Rob Thomas, and Jon Kasdan all cut their writing teeth on the creek. It boasts a pretty impressive list of guest stars throughout the years and it single handedly revived/reimagined the primetime teen melodrama. It's cheesy as hell but it's also seminal TV.

I've popped season 1 in the DVD player, and what strikes me about it is that it's emotionally right--it's the real world of teenagers, their concerns, etc., with 4 very distinct characters. The dialogue is so far from the way so many kids today talk in terms of coherence, logic, and vocabulary, yet it rings true somehow--very strange. I've got a great vocabulary, yet they use words I only read in books, words I never use in everyday conversation--yet, it works. Perhaps because they actually use all that vocabulary correctly!

The Pacey/Joey ship just seems obvious almost from day 1--they have so much in common, and they need each other. When they talk as characters, they seem to listen to each other. Any scene--ANY scene--with Dawson is only about Dawson. Did Williamson every really think Dawson was a sympathetic character? He's the villian, though he's a good villian, he creates lots of conflict and tension. He must be one of the most selfish characters ever on network television--but hey, he's a kid, just a selfish kid. You might argue that Van Der Beek did a great job with the character--I can't imagine any actor making that character sympathetic--he's so self involved! Van Der Beek was as much Dawson as Jackson was Pacey.

Folks talk about the triangle being forced on them in season 3--but it's right there in season 1, it all starts with Double Date. The difference between Pacey and Dawson is so evident in Decisions--D/J spend the night at the hotel because Dawson wants to spend the night with Joey, but P/J spend the night together going to the prison and back because Pacey wants to help.

Promicide doesn't bother me--I know a little about low self esteem, and both Pacey's words and Joey's reactions are spot on, painful as it may be. Knowing that they would be together in the end helped, of course--I watched long after it was all over. Still--Pacey and Joey's breakup was inevitable, she had to go off and do her own thing at college. I can never forgive the writers for having Dawson finance it, though. Ugh--one of their worst decisions ever!

Why do all the adults do nothing but praise Dawson--they serve no other purpose on the show--Joey's father in prison, the horrible Aunt Gwen, Dawson's parents, Pacey's dad. Perhaps that's what made Grams so special! She seemed like a real person.

As for the folks who think Joey had no spine in season 3 and after--I disagree. Joey wasn't choosing between Joey and Pacey as lovers at the end of season 3. When she was going to reject Pacey for Dawson, it wasn't about choosing a boyfriend, it was about having one of the most important people in her life hate her if she went off with Pacey. I thought that it made perfect sense for the character of Joey as written--she couldn't take a risk with Pacey if meant losing Dawson, not at the age of 17, at any rate. She didn't need Dawson's permission to be with Pacey, she needed to know that he'd stand by her. Fans seemed to hate her for it, but I thought it was true to the character as written.

Sorry that this is in very random order, but this is what it boils down to: the characters were very three dimensional, different from one another, well fleshed out, etc. etc. etc. They weren't generic in any way--it was truly a great soap opera!

The only one that got screwed was poor Jen--wow, were they cruel to her! Her character was all over the map, they jerked her around all the time. The whole plot with Henry was awful. But at least we got the Jen/Jack/Grams trio--and what a trio it was.

Good characters are what make a good show, and when it comes right down to it, whatever else you might criticize DC for--it had excellent characters, well written and well acted.