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skittlebrau
Okay, a while back I started reading novelizations of comics (Greg Rucka's "No Man's Land" novel hooked me.) There was a line of Justice League novels focusing on each individual character -- I read a few (Wonder Woman "Mythos" and Batman "The Stone King",) but they weren't terribly great.

However, I'm reading John Shirley's "Dead White" right now, and this book just astounds me. It's extremely racial (it's about neo-nazi mobsters) and it also takes place a short time after what I'm guessing is the "Batman Begins" era/reboot.

I'm surprised how much I like the DC novels about Bats. Anyone else in to these kinds of books, or am I just a lone geek here?
Mike-El
I thought the novelizations of Kingdom Come and The Death and Life of Superman were both top-notch. Roger Stern's descriptions of the Superman/Doomsday fights were just brutal and with Kingdom Come you get vintage Mark Waid and Elliott S! Maggin...so, rock on.
skittlebrau
Was the novelization of Kingdom Come less whiney than the actual Kingdom Come comic books? Because I must admit... I... did not like Kingdom Come. (I know, I'm in the minority.)

The only thing I liked about Mythos was the graphic description of the rape and pillaging of Themyscira. I mean, I didn't *like* the fact that it was raped and pillaged, merely that it was more graphic and disturbing with words than I think it would have been with pictures.
Mike-El
QUOTE (skittlebrau+Nov 1 2006, 09:56 PM)
Was the novelization of Kingdom Come less whiney than the actual Kingdom Come comic books? Because I must admit... I... did not like Kingdom Come. (I know, I'm in the minority.)

No. I can pretty much say with certainty that if you didn't like KC because of the somber, Debbie Downer tone, you wouldn't like the novelization because it is greatly, greatly expounded upon.
skittlebrau
QUOTE
if you didn't like KC because of the somber, Debbie Downer tone, you wouldn't like the novelization
<br>I didn't like KC because all the superheroes were acting like 13 year old brats, but that's a discussion for another thread. Or, hell, this thread, seeing as it's just you and me in here.
Rex Dart
Weird... I read the Kingdom Come novelization too. I prefer my funny books to have pictures, but it was pretty good. Don't recall it adding a whole lot to the original, but I liked the original, so.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (Rex Dart+Nov 3 2006, 01:21 PM)
Weird... I read the Kingdom Come novelization too. I prefer my funny books to have pictures, but it was pretty good. Don't recall it adding a whole lot to the original, but I liked the original, so.
If it doesn't add anything, I'm not going to bother. Why settle for just having Mark Waid's excellent story when you can also have Alex Ross's excellent art?
skittlebrau
Seriously, Alex Ross's art was the only thing I liked about Kingdom Come in the first place. Even though he made WW look a little too Chyna for my tastes.

But anyway, back to the point of the thread -- there are novels that aren't based on already existing comic books, just comic book characters. Some of them really suck because they're written by people who don't have any familiarity with the characters and have to be given a crash course in their mythology/history by DC.... Why would DC do that? When they have talented writers at their disposal already?
starri
I hate Alex Ross. There, I said it.

I did however, love Marvels, because that style worked very well with the story.

Anyway, I've only read Greg Rucka's NML novelization, but I enjoyed it a lot. It compressed the highlights of the plot arc into a much more readable digest, and Rucka is one of the few writers, apart from the current Birds of Prey scribe Gail Simone who gets the Huntress, and she's a favorite of mine. But I digress.
Eris Rising
I did like No Man's Land, and the Death of Superman worked remarkably well. Especially the actual battle to the death, which annoyed me in the comics version since they figured that every page should be a splash page.
Mike-El
QUOTE (starri+Nov 3 2006, 03:48 PM)
I hate Alex Ross.  There, I said it.

And I agreed with it.

He always makes Superman look surly and constipated.

Tell me I'm wrong. You can't do it.

ETA: Yeah...I sometimes use a Ross shirt-rip avatar. It's an iconic shirt-rip but he still looks like he's about to fly off for some Metamucil.
Rex Dart
QUOTE
If it doesn't add anything, I'm not going to bother.
Well, it didn't literally add nothing. As I recall, it told you more about the President of the US at the time, a very bit character in the comic, which was kind of interesting. And I seem to remember it getting a little bit more into Norman McKay's head than the comic. But yeah, I'd think that in general, although a bad comic could probably be summarized in prose without really losing anything, you can't do that to a good comic without losing a lot, since the artist is doing more than just carrying the storyline. I haven't read any "original" comic book novels that I can remember, so I can't speak to those. Certainly seems like a medium that a talented writer could do a lot with.
skittlebrau
QUOTE
Rucka is one of the few writers, apart from the current Birds of Prey scribe Gail Simone who gets the Huntress, and she's a favorite of mine.
<br>Ahh, but original recipe Huntress, or reboot Huntress?

Rucka, now that I'm thinking about it, also did novelizations of his "Queen And Country" comics that were brilliant, too. Basically I just love Rucka. Because his books are the only ones that really get in to the mind of Batman without me wanting to roll my eyes into the back of my head.
starri
Both, but I prefer Helena Bertinelli. I know it's heresy, but I think she's fascinating, and seeing Batman grudgingly respect her was very satisfying for me. And Simone managed to take a hated character and make her into a favorite. She also wrote an awesome Birds of Prey-inspired episode of Justice League Unlimited.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (Mike-El+Nov 3 2006, 02:06 PM)
QUOTE (starri+Nov 3 2006, 03:48 PM)
I hate Alex Ross.  There, I said it.

And I agreed with it.

He always makes Superman look surly and constipated.

Tell me I'm wrong. You can't do it.

ETA: Yeah...I sometimes use a Ross shirt-rip avatar. It's an iconic shirt-rip but he still looks like he's about to fly off for some Metamucil.
You're wrong. He looks a bit serious, like even when he's smiling he's fully aware that he's responsible for protecting the whole damned world.
starri
My problem with Ross stem from the use of models. I don't mind that an artist uses models, since, you know, they have to sketch something, but he seems to use the same ones over and over and over again. If you look at his posters that DC sells, Superman and Aquaman are pretty clearly the same model, so are Green Lantern and Batman. So are Wonder Woman, Zatanna (another favorite), and Black Canary.

Still, watching the photo-realistic retelling of Gwen Stacey falling to her death off the Brooklyn Bridge always catches in my throat.
Mike-El
QUOTE (Eris Rising+Nov 3 2006, 04:46 PM)
You're wrong.  He looks a bit serious, like even when he's smiling he's fully aware that he's responsible for protecting the whole damned world.

Eh...I think Ross's smiles even look like grimaces.

Personal pref, I guess. I've never been crazy about his penchant for making characters look like recognizable stars or celebrities, either. It takes me out of the story. No biggie. The spice of life and all that...

I've always been more of a Ed McGuinness/C.C. Beck kinda guy. I like that exaggerated dynamism.
Eris Rising
Oh, there's a place for that as well, to be sure. Then again, I used to get in screaming matches--well, raised voice matches, anyway--with my friend over whether Todd McFarlane was a good artist for Spider-Man.
Rex Dart
I guess it goes without saying that Curt Swan = Superman.

QUOTE (Mike-El+)
I've never been crazy about [Ross'] penchant for making characters look like recognizable stars or celebrities, either.

Did you read The Ultimates? I loved it, but it was obnoxious in that aspect. They actually had the characters sit around and talk about who should play them in a movie. Just stop.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (Rex Dart+Nov 3 2006, 02:59 PM)
I guess it goes without saying that Curt Swan = Superman.
Yep. And Neal Adams = Batman.
starri
QUOTE
Then again, I used to get in screaming matches--well, raised voice matches, anyway--with my friend over whether Todd McFarlane was a good artist for Spider-Man.
The box says 'No.'

John Romita Sr and Jr are the best. There are no others.

I also hate the Mike Grell era of Green Arrow. I'm a bad little fanboy.
Eris Rising
I say "yes" on McFarlane, but I hate everything he's done since. Yes, even Spawn. Especially Spawn.
starri
Hey, hate on Spawn all you want. Line starts behind me.

McFarlane is another of those industry sacred cows that I intensely dislike (I also think Alan Moore is vastly overrated, which is akin to harikari in some circles), mostly because of how his attitudes towards woman get expressed. The McFarlane Toys "Twisted World Of Oz" with a naked Dorothy being held in bondage being the chief example on that one.
Eris Rising
I like Moore quite a bit. However, I've come to the conclusion that Grant Morrison, while talented, is no longer the inventive genius who will save comics from themselves. I like his stuff, but the stories he's done for mainstream DC over the past decade could have conceivably been written by any of their more talented people.
starri
Sometimes I'd rather have a good comics writer than a mad genius trying to re-invent the wheel. I'm mostly pleased that the pendulum has swung away from the super-star artists and back onto the production team as whole.
Rex Dart
I do think Moore is a genius. Morrison to me is good playing it straight (JLA) and good being a total madman (Invisibles), but sometimes he gets caught in between and I don't like that stuff as much.

But let's get back to Green Arrow, because seriously, there can never be enough Green Arrow talk. Adams is also the main man there, in my mind: socially conscious GA is the definitive GA. The Batman connection there is nice, because GA and Bats do have a lot in common, and it makes sense that they've been portrayed as working closely together in Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come. (The similarities go all the way back to GA's beginnings as a total Batman clone, and although the differences are obvious, the characters are parallel in a lot of ways too.)
Eris Rising
QUOTE (starri+Nov 3 2006, 04:39 PM)
Sometimes I'd rather have a good comics writer than a mad genius trying to re-invent the wheel. I'm mostly pleased that the pendulum has swung away from the super-star artists and back onto the production team as whole.
I do see your point, but the mad genius type has helped titles to break out of the doldrums several times in the past. Fortunately, with new titles like Secret Six (Please, please make it a regular series!), there doesn't seem to be much of a need. Also, the two "teen" books--Teen Titans and Robin--are doing well, and I do love the writing on Green Arrow, even if I'm indifferent at best to the art.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (Rex Dart+Nov 3 2006, 04:52 PM)
I do think Moore is a genius. Morrison to me is good playing it straight (JLA) and good being a total madman (Invisibles), but sometimes he gets caught in between and I don't like that stuff as much.

But let's get back to Green Arrow, because seriously, there can never be enough Green Arrow talk. Adams is also the main man there, in my mind: socially conscious GA is the definitive GA. The Batman connection there is nice, because GA and Bats do have a lot in common, and it makes sense that they've been portrayed as working closely together in Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come. (The similarities go all the way back to GA's beginnings as a total Batman clone, and although the differences are obvious, the characters are parallel in a lot of ways too.)
I own it in some TPB or another, but I'm trying to remember exactly where Bruce said to Ollie "The Arrowcave...did you ever have an original thought back then?"
starri
It was in the brilliant, Kevin Smith-authored Green Arrow: Quiver. Best work Mr. Smith has done.

The follow-up a few years ago with Ollie bidding on the Arrowcar on eBay because he was embarrassed by it was brilliant, as well.

Smith is what started us down the slippery slope of having screenwriters in to write for comics.
Eris Rising
A slippery slope to be sure, but it worked out very well with both Smith and Whedon.

I'd love to see Smith do JLA, but he has enough issues getting things in on time without having it affect the flagship title.
starri
His six issue Spider-Man/Black Cat miniseries took, what, four years to come out?

It's not even the work. Allan Heinberg's Young Avengers helped me re-discover my love of comics, it's just that they can't seem to get them out on time. Perhaps nothing was quite as bad as Mr. Smith, but the second arc on Astonishing was terrible, mostly because Whedon supposedly didn't actually write it because he was too busy with other projects.
Eris Rising
The problem is that they all have one leg in the world of comics, and one leg in the world of film. If they simply chose to work on one thing for a while, it would make all of the difference in the world.
skittlebrau
QUOTE
I also think Alan Moore is vastly overrated
<br>I didn't like The Watchmen very much. I appreciated it for what it was trying to do, but I just wasn't in to it. But I absolutely adore Top Ten. So go figure.

I tried to change the name of this topic to just Comic Books, but the damn thing won't change. I'll need a Mod's help.
Eris Rising
I'll go to the help thread if you haven't already.
starri
QUOTE
I didn't like The Watchmen very much. I appreciated it for what it was trying to do, but I just wasn't in to it.
You have no idea.

Seriously I think "V For Vendetta" is a great book (and his hissyfit over the movie was really uncalled for, but I digress), and he did write what for my money is one of the best Superman stories ever, "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" which was supposed to close the door on the Silver Age and usher in "The Man Of Steel," but I just think everything is overwritten. And now he's writing what's nothing more nor less than porn, but being lauded because it's brilliant, literary porn. Which makes it okay.

Plus, he rarely seems to want to be bothered to make up his own characters and just wants to borrow others.
Eris Rising
I'm not sure that what his comments over the movie really sunk to the level of a hissyfit, although I'm of the opinion that that film and the League adaptation both deserved one. He's simply said what he's always said: He's not sure why someone would adapt something so obviously meant to be a comic book into a movie, unless it's purely for the money.
starri
But then he took his toys and went home when they refused to publicly kowtow to apologize. That's the textbook definition of a hissyfit, at least for me.

Plus, unless he's doing Lost Girls and the LEG books pro bono, or giving the money to charity, he doesn't seem to have any problem taking other creators characters and using them for his own purposes, and that smacks of hypocrisy.

I think he's a good writer, no doubt, and I admire his absolute dedication to the medium, but that doesn't excuse him from acting like a horse's ass in certain respects. I'm not him, and maybe I have no taste, but I would have been proud to have my name on the film version of V For Vendetta, because it attempted a very complex story, streamlined it, and even made a few improvements in places.

If mad genius we must have, I'll stick with Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison, who both love what they do, but ultimately leave it to the reader to get from the story what he should get from the story.
Eris Rising
How did he take his toys and go home? I'm obviously missing something. He's refused from the beginning to be involved in any film adaptation of his work.
starri
Oh, sorry.

After the bruhaha over the movie, he declared that he'd never work for DC again, and after League of Extraordinary Gentleman: The Black Dossier is published (whenever that may be), any subsequent LEG stories will be published by Top Shelf, who's also publishing Lost Girls.

And there's the small fact of the matter that I think he's not only crazy, he seems to loathe his fans. Maybe I'm just too used to the idea of comics writers who interact directly with their fans online, but considering he doesn't even bother to attend a single convention, it seems like a big F-U to all the people who made him a star.
skittlebrau
Well, I for one don't want to see The Watchmen adapted in to a film, which they've been talking about doing forever, so if he throws a hissy fit over that I might send him flowers.
starri
I agree. I just don't think it's something that would adapt well. It's just too nuanced and wordy to translate into a standard adventure film.

And it doesn't help that, honestly, the plot is inscrutible, and it hangs more on the fact that every single character is an asshole.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (starri+Nov 5 2006, 07:26 AM)
Oh, sorry.

After the bruhaha over the movie, he declared that he'd never work for DC again, and after League of Extraordinary Gentleman: The Black Dossier is published (whenever that may be), any subsequent LEG stories will be published by Top Shelf, who's also publishing Lost Girls.

And there's the small fact of the matter that I think he's not only crazy, he seems to loathe his fans. Maybe I'm just too used to the idea of comics writers who interact directly with their fans online, but considering he doesn't even bother to attend a single convention, it seems like a big F-U to all the people who made him a star.
You may be right. However, I've also heard that he simply hates to travel. And he was kind enough to grant a friend of mine an interview, but I can't say how he acts towards his fans as a whole.

I'll agree to disagree.
starri
No, you may be right too. I suppose everyone's entitled to be an eccentric recluse, and he's not the first writer in any medium to do that. It's just hard for me to look at him in the same light as, say, Will Eisner or Stan Lee, the former who interacted directly with fans almost until the day he died.

But it's not like Moore's the only sour-puss who's convinced of his own genius in the industry. Steve Ditko had it down to an artform since before Moore published his first issue of Swamp Thing.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (starri+Nov 6 2006, 10:17 AM)
No, you may be right too. I suppose everyone's entitled to be an eccentric recluse, and he's not the first writer in any medium to do that. It's just hard for me to look at him in the same light as, say, Will Eisner or Stan Lee, the former who interacted directly with fans almost until the day he died.

But it's not like Moore's the only sour-puss who's convinced of his own genius in the industry. Steve Ditko had it down to an artform since before Moore published his first issue of Swamp Thing.
Now, Ditko does come across to me as kind of a dick. But I do have an inborn prejudice against Rand-parroters, so I admit to bias in this case.
Rex Dart
Yeah, some of these criticisms are a little weird IMO. If Moore even has any obligation to his fans other than to attempt to sell them comic books, I certainly don't think that not attending conventions represents substantial proof that he doesn't care about them. I dunno the details of the LoEG movie making (and I doubt that one could plausibly make a mass appeal movie while sticking to the original material, so I appreciate the filmmakers' dilemma... of course, they coulda just not made the damn movie), but the one thing I do know is that the movie they did end up making was terrible. As for using other peoples' characters... first of all, he does do plenty of stuff with original characters, much of which has been extremely memorable. Even if he didn't, I think it's kind of... non-postmodern? to use that as a criticism. Are rappers lesser artists because they don't write their music? Is Joyce a worse writer because he was working off the outline of the Odyssey? Re-arranging and re-interpreting previous works isn't a lesser form of art IMO. You certainly can't accuse Moore of not doing anything different with the characters! He uses them to make points about the modern world and about his own worldview.

I'll buy "pretentious," "too meta," "relentlessly grim" and "incredibly weird" as criticisms, but not this other stuff ;-)
starri
If I had to choose, I would be less inclined to invite Ditko to a dinner party, if nothing else if Moore as anti-social and full of himself, at least he would have interesting things to say.

And that may be the strangest thing I've ever posted on the internets.
Eris Rising
Yeah, Ditko would just sit in a corner and mutter to himself. Of course, you could always have fun walking up beside him and shouting "Stan Lee's almost here!" just to watch him Hulk out for the remainder of the soiree.
starri
QUOTE
If Moore even has any obligation to his fans other than to attempt to sell them comic books, I certainly don't think that not attending conventions represents substantial proof that he doesn't care about them.
Maybe I'm just too demanding of writers and artists in genre fiction, but because it has been until the last few years considered a niche community, so many of the creators almost have considered it an obligation to put in direct interaction with their fans, whether through convention appearances or the internet, or what have you.

And it's not really the idea of borrowing other characters and doing new things with them that bothers me (though it could be considered, taken to the extreme, a much more literary stripe of fanfic), it's just that some of his criticism of the V For Vendetta movie is that it wasn't a straight-up word for word adaptation (David Lloyd said as much), and when he's so pleased to play in other people's sandboxes, it seems like hypocrisy to rake people across the coals for playing in his. I give him credit for not taking money from the producers, but I guess I just don't get all the vitriol. If you don't like comic book movies, no one's forcing you to sit through one, but if it leads someone to seek out your original work and maybe wins you some new fans in the process, how is it a bad thing?
skittlebrau
I cannot verify this in any way, but I do have friends (mainly the ones who urged me to give "Top Ten" a try despite my loathing of Kingdom Come and The Watchmen) who claim that Moore was far more dickish and reclusive when he was writing stuff like "The Watchmen" and "Miracleman" then he is lately. I think it's more a case of everyone still thinking that comics have to be dark and depressing to be taken seriously, while Moore has gotten past that and realizes you can have fun with the medium without denegrading it.
Eris Rising
Also, Bill Murray made a great comment about fame. I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like "After you get to be famous, you have about a year or two of being an asshole. If you don't get over it during that time, you never will." Of course, Murray's reputation is open to debate as well, but I think that the point may apply equally well to suddenly-famous comic book writers and artists.
starri
I also think he's got problems with women, considering they're usually simpering victims (Evey in VfV), total bitches (Laurel in Watchmen), or whores. I suppose the men don't come off much better, but at least a few of them manage to be sympathetic.

I freely admit this may be irrational, but there's something about his style that I just don't like. I don't disparage anyone for liking his work, because I'm clearly in the extreme minority, but it's something else that's always bugged me.

Moving along.
Rex Dart
QUOTE (starri+)
I also think he's got problems with women

I don't mean to beat you over the head with defending Moore, but (well, first of all, Evey surely doesn't end up a victim, but more significantly) if you feel this way, you really, really should check out Promethea. It's girl power all over the place.

(Your criticism does, of course, apply to Frank Miller. That is a scary individual.)

Your point about turnabout being fair play in the "deconstruction" game is very interesting, and at least on the rare occasion that someone with talent adapts Moore's work, I think there is a lot to it. I think Moore felt that the V movie had a different emphasis than his book, being focused more on Evey, and portraying V more as an anti-fascist than as an anarchist. (Again, there's the issue that a big-budget Hollywood movie more faithful to the original probably could not have hoped to be successful... and the question of whether that's an excuse.) I would agree, though, that it is a good movie, and that it could easily be argued that the filmmakers made V reflective of their own 21st century American experience in much the same way that Moore has often made other peoples' characters reflective of his own themes.

Although Watchmen will probably always be the one that gets talked about most because it deals with the costumed guys, I think From Hell is Moore's most amazing accomplishment. (And nah, I don't need to see a Watchmen movie either.)
Eris Rising
I did like From Hell, but Watchmen is the more interesting work for me. Not just because it's "the costumed guys," but because he manages to explore and deconstruct every single convention and cliche of the form. The final confrontation with Ozymandis, complete with his revelation that causes them to realize that they're not up against "A villain from a Republic serial," as he put it, is one of the most stunning moments I've read in any form of literature.
starri
QUOTE
Your criticism does, of course, apply to Frank Miller. That is a scary individual.
Totally agree there.

One of the good changes I thought the VfV movie made was placing the emphasis more on Evey. There were definitely mistakes made (by the time V is professing his love, I was looking for a popcorn bucket to wretch into), but while I know she's ultimately sympathetic in the comic, I've always felt she follows V a little blindly, even after her big awakening.
Rex Dart
Oh, I definitely don't want to imply that Watchmen is only notable because it's in the superhero genre. It's a fantastic piece of work; beneath a basic plot that's really interesting in and of itself, all of the devices Moore throws in there (foreshadowing, the brilliant "symmetric" chapter, the pirate ship, etc.) come together to create something really amazing. (And so influential, too... just yesterday on Heroes, the "radioactive man" whose wife got cancer reminded me of Dr. Manhattan, and the whole thing where a precognitive artist predicts NYC's destruction is also similar.)

But another thing about making a movie out of it, besides how damn difficult it'd be to get right, is that the time has kind of passed. It's no surprise anymore to point out that you'd have to be a little nuts to dress up in a costume and be a vigilante; after 20 years of people working with that, we all get it by now. As Eris pointed out, Moore seems to realize it too, and has generally lightened up a bit. I'm in favor of a "new retro" movement that takes some of the lessons of "grim and gritty" for granted, but doesn't dwell on it.
skittlebrau
QUOTE
And so influential, too... just yesterday on Heroes, the "radioactive man" whose wife got cancer reminded me of Dr. Manhattan,
<br>HAHAHA! During that whole episode, when the radioactive guy was burning shit up, my husband (who is not in to comics) goes "Radioactive Man? Like on the Simpsons?" and I was all "No. Dr. Manhattan." And then when Micah whipped out the payphone-fixing-skills I was all "Ahh, I see he is Toybox," to which my husband was like "Are you just making things up? I don't believe there's a superhero called 'Toybox'. You're just messing with me."
Eris Rising
QUOTE (skittlebrau+Nov 7 2006, 12:49 PM)
QUOTE
And so influential, too... just yesterday on Heroes, the "radioactive man" whose wife got cancer reminded me of Dr. Manhattan,
<br>HAHAHA! During that whole episode, when the radioactive guy was burning shit up, my husband (who is not in to comics) goes "Radioactive Man? Like on the Simpsons?" and I was all "No. Dr. Manhattan." And then when Micah whipped out the payphone-fixing-skills I was all "Ahh, I see he is Toybox," to which my husband was like "Are you just making things up? I don't believe there's a superhero called 'Toybox'. You're just messing with me." Forgive the minor self-pimp, but your husband is obviously one of the rare male Proxy Geeks out there.
skittlebrau
Haha! He has his geeky tendencies, too, they just don't include comic books or posting on internet message boards. He thinks the fact that I've met people on the internet and then in turn hung out with these people in real life is extremely strange. He asks questions like "Who the hell is 'Toybox'?" and I try to explain, he goes "NEVERMIND NEVERMIND I DON'T CARE." But at least he's stopped making fun of me for bringing home Batman novels. I don't care if he doesn't want to share my interest, I just don't want to be made fun of for it. Which is about the best you can expect for someone who refuses to even look at comics when I'm like "WOW, THIS PANEL IS AWESOME CHECK IT OUT!"
Rex Dart
And for more Moore influence, The Book of Fate sounds like someone put From Hell and The Da Vinci Code in a butter churn. (Anyone read it?)
Eris Rising
I've been too busy with Warren Ellis's Nextwave. How did I miss this one? Funniest thing out there right now.
starri
It was one of those that flew under the radar because they didn't promote it particularly well. Unfortunately, because it wasn't selling so hot, Ellis made the decision to cancel it to free the artist to do other stuff, though he says there will likely be a few LS down the road.

I just loved their taglines. My favorite, and the reason it caught my eye was "If You Like Anything, You'll Love Nextwave!"
Eris Rising
Hell, the Robotman/Fin Fang Foom battle promoted as "Hot Gill on Grill Action!"
starri
If you like Ellis, try Global Frequency, a 12-issue limited series he did with Wildstorm a few years ago. They adapted it for a TV pilot, and once it leaked on the internets, it seemed really stupid that the WB passed on it, since it, and star Michelle Forbes, kicked all kinds of ass.

It's collected in two TPBs, Detonation Radio, and Planet Ablaze. All the issues are self contained and done by different artists, but that's someone intentional, because Ellis came up with a list of artists he wanted to work with, and then wrote stories to compliment their art.
Eris Rising
Thanks, I'll check it out.

You know, 52 has turned into the For Better Or For Worse of comic books for me. The storylines are annoying and semi-nonsensical, but I can't help picking it up every week to check it out.
starri
I've missed a few weeks, and I honestly don't know if I'll bother getting back into the swing of things. I've been holding off heading into the comic shop until the next issue of Civil War, because, fanboys aside, I've been enjoying the hell out of it, so I may be spending $100 getting stuff I've missed.

I've noticed my DC buying has really dropped off since the resolution of Infinite Crisis. I started strong with the OYL Wonder Woman, but Heinberg's had problems getting it out on time, and I'm struck by the illogic of Black Canary quitting the Birds of Prey to be a mom, while joining the Justice League. And JLA REALLY didn't grab me like it seems to have grabbed everyone else. I have no interest whatsoever in Grant Morrison's Batman.

And let's not even talk about how long All-Star Batman is taking.

OTOH, I did pick up the Infinite Crisis hardcover, despite the Soviet revisionism that seems to have transpired within its pages, and Watchmen, which I didn't own.
Eris Rising
I'm okay with the Black Canary thing, I'm enjoying Morrison's Son of Batman storyline, and I agree with you on JLA, though I'm keeping it on my pull list. Don't give a damn about All-Star Batman, as I seem to hate much of the Miller stuff everyone loves, and actually like one of the things that everyone hates.

What's this about revisionism in the IC hardcover? I haven't seen it.
starri
The scene from the first issue with the Big Three arguing in the Watchtower's remains has been edited in with Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters being killed, a few spreads that were originally left in rough form directly from Jimenez's pencils were inked and colored, Batman's oft quoted line to Earth-2 Supes about Dick was changed, Dick's non-death was made a little clearer (still waiving from the decks of the cruise ship, but this time looking beat up with his arm in a sling), and there are supposedly hints that Earth-2 is still out there somewhere, though I've missed them.

Which, by the way, I think is a fantastically stupid idea, on par with resurrecting Jason Todd. And killing Superboy.

I suppose the changes might not be actual revisions, just weirdness resulting from Superboy-Prime punching the wall of the DC offices or something.
Eris Rising
I'm good with Earth-2 still being out there somewhere. In fact, they pretty much stated it directly in Justice League of America #0, when they were showing the future scenes. Maybe it's just that I was just re-reading my silver age-era Justice Society TPB and my Batman In The 1940s collection. Either way, I've always had a fondness for the Earth-2 characters.

Jason Todd I agree about. While the subsequent story has been interesting, the actual resurrection made no sense whatsoever. Superboy I'm neutral on. While the character had finally become more interesting, his death as a hero resolved the issues he'd been facing regarding his heritage, and was touchingly presented.

On the other hand, I was just beginning to like him.
starri
The problem is, DC's continuity is so unwieldly, and I hate the fact that they just can't tell a story and stick with it. I'm not saying Marvel is that much better, but the MU is a whole greater than the sum of its parts in a way that the DCU just isn't.

If you're going to do a megalithic crossover that's supposed to streamline the continuity, it should, you know, actually streamline it, not make it worse. Batman: Son of the Demon was continuity, then it wasn't, now it is again. The Batman: Year One (and more importantly, the superior Long Halloween and Dark Victory) have gone in and out more times than I can count.

I understand them making an editorial decision to retcon the retcon, but they usually wait a year or two.
Eris Rising
I think that you can establish pretty much anything that they're bringing up nowadays as in continuity, and anything they're ignoring isn't. I am bothered by the fact that they're not following up on two major bits: The Wayne murder resolution, and the younger adventures of Superman.
starri
The DCU: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Retcon Punches.

Their intra-title continuity hasn't been the greatest either, as a somewhat different versions of villians--namely Cheetah, though I think there have been others--have showed up in titles.

There are times that fanboys annoy me, and then I realize, I truly am they.
Eris Rising
On to another topic: Your Long Halloween mention made me think of great writer/artist teams. Loeb and Sale are right up there, their styles complementing each other perfectly. Possibly the best Batman since O'Neill/Adams. Your thoughts?
starri
The gaping plot holes aside, I think the Loeb/Lee collaboration on Hush is a favorite. With the exception of redesigning Huntress with the amazing slut duds (which Gail Simone mercifully was rid of), the character designs were much, much better than they'd been for a while. Unfortunately, the stuff that was spawned out of Hush, namely, the aforementioned resurrection, and the terrible, terrible, terrible War Games story, and the just utter dickwad Batman persona that if nothing else, IC got rid of. I wish Jim Lee could draw faster than glacial speed, but if nothing else, he looks great.

I do like Sale, and I love the stuff he's done for Heroes, and I love the story and stylistic choices for TLH, but if it wasn't for Loeb's words, I don't know how I'd like it.

If that made any sense.

Eris Rising
It does make sense. I will say that I loved LH, but their Superman work with "A Superman For All Seasons" left me cold. Supes seemed too cartoony, almost Tick-like in appearance.
starri
I thought he looked too damned much like Captain Marvel, personally.

My most embarrassing Jeph Loeb-related moment came at the end of the Smallville episode that was dedicated in memory of his son Sam, which made me cry. No parent deserves to have to go through that.

The most fundamentally decent thing that I've ever heard the comics industry do (apart from their post-9/11 memorial issues) was for Marvel to allow Jeph to finish off Sam's issue of Superman/Batman before he started his exclusive contract.
starri
Well, I went ahead and put in my order for Midtown Comics, which included all the weeks of 52 I missed, and the much delayed WW. I complain, but I am so their bitch.
Eris Rising
Maybe 52 will be different if you're able to sit down and read it all at once. Right now, it's an exercise in frustration for me (as opposed to suspense).
starri
Ultimately, it's four monthly books beyind told as one weekly book. Once I accepted that, it became better.

But the problem is, very little seems to happen in the individual issues. I haven't read an issue since #21, but I have really enjoyed Steel and the continuing story between Renee Montoya and Question. The rest, especially the Black Adam stuff, I couldn't be more bored with. But there's enough wheat in the chaff to make it a rewarding experience.
Eris Rising
Without spoiling you, I can say that the Question/Montoya story keeps getting more interesting. However, you're not done with Khandaq yet.
starri
I do know a little bit about it. And that sounds somewhat good. That's been the most solid part of the story from the get-go.

Except for Batwoman, which has been a load of nothing.
Eris Rising
Yeah, that was a letdown. Here's to hoping that they actually do something interesting with her in the near future.
starri
I mean, what was the point of going through all the bruhaha and creating the character in the first place? Why not just name her Token and be done with it?

There are far too few gay folks in the DCU proper as it is, and I'm honestly more offended that they would look like they were making the effort, and then not bothering than if they'd left it alone.
Eris Rising
I agree with that. I mean, give her a major role, or something. Hell, they made it sound like they were setting her up for a limited series, at least.

I can't help wondering what her Batman-infatuated Earth-2 counterpart would think of her.
starri
Kathy Kane would probably smack Kate Kane with her utility-purse.

It's always amused me that Batwoman was originally introduced after the publication of Seduction of the Innocent, so that we would know that Batman was a red-blooded American male who was no pansy fruit...and then he had this hot chick that was all over him and he had absolutely no interest in her whatsoever. I think Robin's interactions with Bette Kane, the original Bat-girl, may have been even gayer, and she was more desperate for him.

I was always hoping that Batman would recognize some worth in Montoya and train her to become Batwoman, but this was just as good. Except for the part that she showed up like twice.
Eris Rising
I loved the utility purse! With the compact with the attack springs!
starri
I mean, I guess she gets by because she was there, but she was hardly a feminist icon. At least Golden Age Wonder Woman got to beat people up. Even if she was just the secretary of the Justice Society. I just imagine her fetching Hourman coffee and typing minutes.
Eris Rising
Batwoman saved the day with the aforementioned spring-loaded compact when they were all kidnapped by Martians. Other than that, though, you're right.

Have they established a familial relationship between this Batwoman and Flamebird?
starri
Except for the last name, there's nothing to link 'em.

Also, oddly enough, Alfred mentioned that Bruce had dated Kate Kane during his swingin' youth, which sounds like an intensely frustrating relationship. For such a loner, Batman's quite the manwhore.
Eris Rising
QUOTE (starri+Nov 11 2006, 05:23 PM)
Except for the last name, there's nothing to link 'em.

Also, oddly enough, Alfred mentioned that Bruce had dated Kate Kane during his swingin' youth, which sounds like an intensely frustrating relationship. For such a loner, Batman's quite the manwhore.
He's the perfect beard, so that makes some sense to me.

"Look, I'm gay, so you'll have to know that we're not doing anything, and there's no chance for a long-term commitment"

"Uh..okay. I tend to disappear without warning when I don't cancel outright at the last minute, and come back later on with mysterious bruises all over me"

"Sounds perfect. Pick me up at eight?"

"Deal"
skittlebrau
I'm far, FAR too lazy to keep up with any kind of storyline that jumps around between character titles. I will wait for Trade Paperback on the 52 saga.

Though, I still need to catch up on the new WW. How many issues are out now? 3? 4? Or are they way behind? Last time I checked issue 2 had been delayed.
Eris Rising
I'm not sure...I should put it on my pull list.

Oh, I found out that at my local comics shop, I'm number one on the list, since I actually pick them up on time with some consistency. That means that mine get pulled before anyone's!
starri
The first two, with Donna Troy declaring herself Wonder Woman and Diana running around relieving her days as the de-powered Emma Peel type from the late 60s (without the actual de-powering), are already out, the third should FINALLY ship this week.

I would give up, but for the fact that I think Allan Heinberg is great, if slow, and he's got such a great affection for both Diana and Donna that it really shines through. Also, the art is wonderful.

I should support my LCS, but it's so damned far out of the way, I usually just do one big order from Midtown Comics once a month.
skittlebrau
I haven't looked for any comics shops since I moved here. I know there's one down the street, but it's pretty popular so I'm a chickenshit about. What's Midtown Comics? Is that an online store?
starri
It's a comic shop in Manhattan that's got a pretty nifty online store.

If you're doing a hefty order, you might actually break even on the shipping. I just like that the comics come bagged and boarded when you get them. Not that I would actually bag and board my comics otherwise. So it's probably a good thing.
starri
I was reading through my nifty new Watchmen copy, and I was struck by two details that I missed with I unthinkingly grabbed it off the table at B&N.

First, it's got the British cover, the one with the close-up of the Comedian's bloody smiley-face button, rather than the original American one, which showed the broken pane of glass of the window that he'd just gone through. Also, it's still listed as "DC Comics" not "Vertigo" which surprised me.

I know I've said some non-buttkissing things about Watchmen, and while I certainly don't think it's worth all the critical acclaim that it got (being on Time's list of the best novels of the 20th century), it's still a damned good story. Whatever my other problems with it, it sets the mood in the alternate reality where the world is teetering on the brink of nuclear war perfectly. And depressingly. Sometimes I wonder if it's supposed to be in the same universe as V for Vendetta.
Eris Rising
After reading that post, I picked up my own copy of Watchmen and read it again.

It's especially interesting when you remember that originally, the story concept was based on Charlton Comics characters (Nite Owl = Blue Beetle, Rorschach = The Question), but Moore changed the characters when he was told that they already had Post-Crisis plans for the Charlton lineup.

I love the entire series, but while the pirate comic is an interesting storytelling device, I find it to be more distracting than anything else in the long run.

Also: Ran across this a while back, but forgot about it: The Religious Affiliation of Comic Book Characters.

J. Jonah Jameson's is my favorite.
Rex Dart
Godddamn you, I just wasted hours reading about comic book characters' religions. Did you know Hal Jordan once wished Barry Allen "Happy Hanukkah"?? WHAT DOES IT MEAN???

Eris Rising
"Benjamin Grimm...lights the menorah...."
Rex Dart
I like the comment in there. "Any handsome Jews out there? A big pile of rocks is Jewish? Thanks..."

(The other great quote, and I really think this is a total classic, is under the Spectre: "I've often thought that the way that big-company superhero comics are written - generations of writers trying to introduce new material while staying faithful to what's gone before - resembles the way religious texts are assembled over the years. And that the Talmud resembles a collection of Marvel No-Prize letters.")

Anyway, I have read the little story that concentrates on Ben's religious background, and it's pretty neat.

Shouldn't Perry White be under "Greco-Roman classical religion"?
Eris Rising
Hah! With spiritualist overtones, perhaps.

I was disappointed that they ditched much of the Rao concept in the Superman comics. It made sense that a man attempting to keep alive Kryptonian traditions would at least keep some of the religious trappings. It would make even more sense for Supergirl, as she spent several years on Krypton before going into suspended animation.
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